Posts by Joe Grundy

4

Stone Them!

by Joe Grundy in

i never was a dub, but brought up going to chapel it was usual practice for sunday morning sermons to be ot based, sunday evenings were nt.. the ot is full of rules, commandments, punishments and 'stoning to death' is a feature.

sadly it's a practice still in force in benighted, religion-fuelled, backward societies even today.. i lived in cyprus 2005-2010 and did my best to learn the modern history of the island.

not inspiring.. until independence in 1960 cyprus was a uk colony.

Joe Grundy

I never was a dub, but brought up going to chapel it was usual practice for Sunday morning sermons to be OT based, Sunday evenings were NT.

The OT is full of rules, commandments, punishments and 'stoning to death' is a feature. Sadly it's a practice still in force in benighted, religion-fuelled, backward societies even today.

I lived in Cyprus 2005-2010 and did my best to learn the modern history of the island. Not inspiring.

Until independence in 1960 Cyprus was a UK colony. The indigenous Greek Cypriot majority wanted to become part of Greece. The minority Turkish Cypriots wanted independence (under Turkish surveillance). Both formed armed groups. TMT for the Turks, EOKA for the Greeks. Both groups killed more of their own contrymen than the opposition. There is a huge and deep divide between right wing and left wing in Cyprus which continues to this day. Following independence in 1960, things didn't get much better and in 1974 Turkey invaded 'to protect the rights of Turkish Cypriots' and still occupy one-third of the island.

Cyprus is now a member of the EU and the eurozone, has applied for an EU bailout proportionately bigger than any other EU country, and has had to 'borrow' money from the pension funds of the Electricity Authority, the Telecomms Authority and the Port Authority so that it can pay public service salaries and pensions for December.

That's a potted and simplistic history/current affairs update.

I read the 'Cyprus Mail' online daily, and this story struck home to me.

I can't make the link clickable, but it's from CM 16 Dec 2012 in a story titled 'Vindication for EOKA Traitors' http://www.cyprus-mail.com/eoka/vindication-eoka-traitors/20121216 and what it brought it home to me was this bit:

'Others might have considered themselves lucky to have been killed by a shot to the back of their head.

Savvas Menikos from Goufes died a horrific death after having been tied to a eucalyptus tree in the village church courtyard on May 23, 1958. Primary school children stoned him in the presence of the priest, according to information gathered by Michael. Eventually, they untied him, placed a stone on him so he could not breathe, kicked dirt into his mouth and urinated in it while kicking.'

That's the reality of stoning to death, my friends. Note the involvement of a Cyprus Orthodox priest (the Cyprus Orthdox Church is, IMO, one of the most corrupt and evil organisations). When you've read that, I defy anyone to sit and listen to an OT-based sermon or 'study' and NOT think about it. This was in my lifetime.

Yes, I know that this horrific practice is still going on today, but it's happening in places which (to my shame as a caring primate) I can more easily close my eyes to as they're 'places in Asia under extremist Asian religions'. Geographically, Cyprus is in Asia.

I may just print out that article and next time someone knocks on my door, dub, Mormon, whatever, I may ask them to read it THEN talk to me about their god.

Sorry about the length of this - sometimes I get a bit wound up!

112

JW.org reports on the Sandy Hook shooting...

by cedars in

jw
friends

from the official jw website.... .

school shooting in connecticutdecember 17, 2012 | united states.

on friday, december 14, 2012, a shooting took place at an elementary school in newtown, connecticut.

Joe Grundy

This will be my only post on this subject.

I offer my condolences to all affected by this tragedy. I have grandchildren (3, 1, 1) and although my children are adults now I can barely imagine the grief.

I was a cop for 30 years. Never had a gun, wouldn't want one. Was at the wrong end of one a couple of times.

I have no idea what the solution to all this is, or if there is one now - maybe it's gone too far.

Some years ago I was in the US working on a case. I worked with two FBI guys. One never carried his gun but it was to hand if needed. The other (much younger) carried his all the time, including to church. One guy we dealt with had 147 firearms and he and his wife slept with loaded 9mm automatics under their pillows - in a very rural, almost zero-crime area. When this guy and his wife came to the UK to give evidence we had to convince them NOT to wear bullet-proof vests when they gave evidence (he insisted on wearing his under his clothes).

When my colleague and I were off-duty on our visit, we wandered around (as you do) and ended up in some fairly unsavoury places. Unarmed, not hiding that we were police, 'innocents abroad'. We had some interesting encounters but never had a major problem, maybe because we were used to talking to people rather than getting into pissing contests.

The UK is not, of course, a paradise and we have many problems here. But I offer my sympathies to my US friends because I don't think you're living in the land of the free - I wonder if you're living in the land of fear.

No offence intended.

120

Christianity gives you....ummm...ummm....exactly what?

by Terry in

christianity:.

you get struck on the cheek and you pony up for the other slap.. you pray for the enemy who wants you face down in the mud with his heel on your neck.. you get treated like pond scum but you force a smile and forgive.. .

if you are abused?

Joe Grundy

"Do as you wish others would do for you"

This is not, of course, a Christian teaching: or, to be more accurate, it is a teaching of religions/philosophies which pre-date Christianity and was incorporated into Christianity.

'Do as you would be done by' is, I understand, a principle espoused by (and evidenced by the behaviour of) many primates (not only homo sapiens).

120

Christianity gives you....ummm...ummm....exactly what?

by Terry in

christianity:.

you get struck on the cheek and you pony up for the other slap.. you pray for the enemy who wants you face down in the mud with his heel on your neck.. you get treated like pond scum but you force a smile and forgive.. .

if you are abused?

Joe Grundy

What does it give you?

A sense of belonging, especially for the lonely.

A sense of justice in the future for those who are oppressed.

A sense of superiority for those who believe that they alone 'know the truth'.

A friend for the friendless.

Someone to talk to for those who have no-one else.

A supposed code of morality for those who need it.

Buildings, music, literature and a sense of history.

Comfort.

A sense that whatever you do, it is sanctioned or justified by your god and is therefore 'right'.

None of it is logical or reasonable, of course, but one can see how a religion (any religion) which offers all this and more could survive and prosper. All one needs to do is to surrender disbelief and critical thinking.

I suppose that my list of points above could apply to any religion and maybe that's why so many religions survive.

38

Is this a new low?

by Darth Eowyn in

just had a couple of jws stop by my house.

they had been before several times and know that i'm a pretty devout catholic, so i'm sure they were just swinging by to get more time for the card.. well, this time the opening line was about the tragedy in ct. i mean, really?

you're going to try to get converts by capitalizing on this tragedy?

Joe Grundy

"They are scavengers."

Excuse a never-was dub (and an atheist) saying this, but in my experience they (dubs, and other cults/denominations/religions) do this all the time. They prey on the (sometimes temporarily) weak, depressed and afflicted, often when the defences are down and any 'comfort' or 'friend' is welcome.

Fine to be a 'friend in need': despicable, in my opinion, to take that opportunity to 'push' (ihe same way a drugs dealer might) religion.

51

Do Witnesses Ever Talk About Their Living Forever And Never Dying?

by minimus in

jw
friends

my 86 year old mother stopped believing she was going into paradise earth without dying first, about 10 years ago.

my aunt used to think she was going to make it through the great tribulation.

even a week before she died, she clung on to this fairy tale.. do you think jws believe they will never die at all and will, in their lifetime, be on a paradise earth to live forever?.

Joe Grundy

"It was the first i realized that the best thing for me to do was not to try to open her eyes, but instead let her live the rest of her days in her paradise bliss dream. It would probably be too traumatic for her to realize that she wasted the majority of her life constantly giving up her time and resources to preach a message that is false."

I never was a dub, nor do I have family/friends who are. But I DO have family and friends who have fairly fundamentalist christian beliefs, including a sister and brother-in-law who have comfort in believing that their son (my nephew) who died at 13 is 'in a better place'.

I never discuss my atheist views and opinions with them (they know where I stand) nor would I ever do so with anyone who has a religious faith unless they initiate the discussion or they attempt to foist their beliefs on me. I would not want to challenge the faith of those who need or take comfort from it.

And, of course, it is usually a waste of time to discuss religion with the religious.

On the post-Armageddon note, there have been some good articles written (sorry, don't have links) about what life could be like in a JW 'Paradise On Earth'. 'Chilling' is probably the best word to describe it.

191

If god exists...

by dazed but not confused in

[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><![endif].

[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"times new roman";} </style> <![endif].

if god exists, wouldnt it make more sense for him to show himself today - now that we are a more enlightened people?

Joe Grundy

NC:

An interesting thought. If I am a 'created being' well, either the creator or me got it sadly wrong.

I've done many things that I got completely wrong, and some I got very right (by my standards, not supernatural ones). I haven't really kept the score (e.g. not done weekly confessionals per RC rules) but I hope that at the end anyone interested enough would assess that the 'good' bits I did outweighed the 'bad'. Not for any supernatural purpose, just because I think that as a higher primate species and as a sentient being, I prefer to do 'good' rather than 'ill'. But I won't be around for the verdict, my atoms and molecules will sooner or later go back to cosmic dust.

I take responsibility for my own actions and I stand or fall by them. I am not subject to supernatural influences, nor am I subject to a 'celestial totalitarianism' which dictates my actions before, during, and after my life. I am me, as independent as I can be, and someone who revels in the freedom to think.

191

If god exists...

by dazed but not confused in

[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><![endif].

[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"times new roman";} </style> <![endif].

if god exists, wouldnt it make more sense for him to show himself today - now that we are a more enlightened people?

Joe Grundy

NC:

Noted and will respond. Thanks.

"Life makes so much more sense now that I'm an atheist. And if this god ever wants to prove he's around, I will examine the new evidence. If he exists, he would know that. I don't even need a miracle."

Well, I agree with this but would expand it to change 'this god' to 'any god'. Raised in a western protestant religion I had a particular view of 'god' inculcated in me as a child - and it's hard to break out of that. A few years ago I had a Thai girlfriend. There was no point in asking her in detail about her beliefs (or anything else for that matter) but her custom and belief was to light incense to the buddha, to give to the monks, and so on. She could no more detail her faith than discuss quantum mechanics (nor could I) but it meant a lot to her and regulated her morals and her actions. Not much different to many western christians.

I do have some problems with the word 'atheist'. It seems to have become pejorative. I don't believe in the supernatural in all its forms, from the tooth fairy to 'ouija' seances. Some/many/most people don't believe in most alleged gods. I just go one step further and don't believe in any of them.

191

If god exists...

by dazed but not confused in

[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><![endif].

[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"times new roman";} </style> <![endif].

if god exists, wouldnt it make more sense for him to show himself today - now that we are a more enlightened people?

Joe Grundy

Tammy:

With respect, I think you're dodging the issue a bit here.

You were born in the west, with a general concept of the modern western god. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia, for example, you would almost certainly have been raised in one of the islamic religions with a concept of allah and your view of Jesus would have been shaped by that - i.e. he was an honourable prophet but his message was superceded by the 'revelations' to Mohammed. To deny that could mean death.

Had you been born in Thailand, for example, you would be following the tenets of the buddha (and other gods) and would probably smile and acknowledge Jesus as one more source of teaching/thinking to be considered. And so the examples could continue.

It would, I think, be a fascinating (but impossible) exercise if one could start with a blank sheet, free of all influences, and truly make a comparative study of all of the religions (and religious influences) which have abounded since homo sapiens started thinking about these things.

191

If god exists...

by dazed but not confused in

[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><![endif].

[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* style definitions */ table.msonormaltable {mso-style-name:"table normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"times new roman";} </style> <![endif].

if god exists, wouldnt it make more sense for him to show himself today - now that we are a more enlightened people?

Joe Grundy

PS: and in the case of the newer religions, e.g. JWs and Mormons, he left it another 2,000 years before communicating the later, truer, stuff.